Lyn: Happy Stormlight Thursday, my Cosmere Chickens! I hope you’re all doing well and that you’re ready for me to wax poetic this week, because it’s time for an Adolin chapter in which he talks a lot about swords. Yes, that’s right… two of my favorite things! Lucky you!
Alice: And don’t forget all the fashion! Yup, it’s an Adolin chapter, all right.
L: It’s practically Cosmere Christmas.
Reminder: We’ll be discussing spoilers for the entirety of the series up until now. If you haven’t read ALL of the published entries of the Stormlight Archive (this includes the novellas Edgedancer and Dawnshard, as well as the entirety of Rhythm of War), best to wait to join us until you’re done.
In this week’s discussion we also discuss some things from Mistborn in the discussion of the epigraph just below here, and Warbreaker in the Cosmere Connections section, so if you haven’t read those, best to give those sections a pass.
Heralds: Kalak, aka Kelek. Resolute/Builder. Willshapers. Role: Maker
A: I spent some time trying to figure this out, then gave up and moved on. Now, I’m wondering if Kalak is here because the Willshapers were the ones known for wanting to do their own thing. Like Adolin.
Icon: The Shardbearer, indicating an Adolin POV chapter.
Epigraph:
I have been fascinated to discover how much you’ve accomplished on Scadrial without me noticing your presence. How is it that you hide from Shards so well?
A: As noted last week, on a bet Sazed has met Hoid, and just doesn’t know it—but it may also have been prior to his Ascension, so he has a good excuse.
L: I guess old Saze is like a lot of the readers, then! Hoid’s notoriously hard to spot in Mistborn, unless you’re looking for him.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Adolin
WHERE: Urithiru
WHEN: 1175.4.1.4 (Three days after Chapter 20)
(Note: For the “when” notations, we are using this wonderful timeline provided by the folks at The 17th Shard.)
Adolin is taking his time choosing an outfit when Shallan confronts him about being late. He makes his way to check up on Kaladin at the new clinic first, and the two chat about how Kaladin is doing. Then Adolin heads outside, where the expedition to Shadesmar is preparing to leave. He inspects his belongings, then has a tense discussion with Dalinar before starting the journey to Shadesmar.
Overall Reactions
Choosing an outfit for the day was a lot like fighting a duel. In both, instincts—rather than conscious decisions—were the key to victory.
L: In which Lyn blathers endlessly about how much she loves Adolin:
And you couldn’t rely on your gut in fashion choices if you hadn’t already spent hours studying the folios.
L: I will never tire of Adolin shirking traditional Alethi gender roles in his love of fashion. NEVER. But especially because he’s so, so right. The clothes you wear make a huge impact in how others perceive you. If you’re walking into a business meeting in a comfy hoodie and pair of sweatpants, you’re not going to be taken as seriously as if you were wearing a tailored three piece suit. Dressing for the occasion is another form of battle, and I’m so glad that Adolin appreciates it!
A: It helps that he’s got the chops to carry it off. That bit where he noted that not many would be able to wear the yellow jacket, but if he wore it, by the next day everyone else would by trying to emulate it? It doesn’t even come across like vanity; just acknowledging the facts. The implication that the imitators wouldn’t be able to pull it off made me cackle like a little witch. I love Adolin.
L: Being able to pull off an unconventional outfit is 75% confidence, and we all know Adolin’s certainly got that in spades! He’s rarely obnoxious about it, though.
Traditional: Kholin blue with white cuffs. Bold white embroidery, with his glyphs—the tall tower and a stylized version of his Blade—on the back.
L: ::scribbles down notes for more cosplays::
At his suggestion she’d replaced the white trousers and jacket with a more practical tan and blue ensemble. White wouldn’t travel well…
L: Bless you, Adolin Kholin, for being practical.
A: I had so much fun with this whole paragraph. Definitely practical, but also making sure that it still worked with her hat—and adding a band to the hat because… well, because Adolin? Because it will look better!
Buy the Book
The Witness for the Dead
Many would have simply assumed it to be an ordinary Kholin uniform. Adolin had designed it himself four years earlier. He’d wanted to create something that would look sharp while satisfying his father’s requirements to be in uniform. The project had excited him for weeks; it had been his first—and only—real attempt at clothing design.
L: I like to think that, in an alternate universe, Adolin Kholin would have been a wonderful fashion designer. We’ll call him Roshar-2 Adolin.
A: Heh. Can you imagine if he hadn’t been a prince? He’d have apprenticed himself to Yokska and learned all about it.
“I talk to my sword too,” Adolin told them. “Funny thing is, she eventually talked back. Never be afraid to show a little respect to those you depend upon, friends.”
L: I’m so terrified for this cinnamon roll of a man. He’s too damn pure for this world, murder on his hands or no.
A: I can’t help thinking this is all foreshadowing, but I’m not sure what for. Maya will talk back more later, sure, but I’m wondering when Gallant is going to find a way to speak as well. Or something.
Or I suppose it could just be setting up the scene for Maya later. It just feels like more.
“I just love finding the best weapon for the job.” … Adolin didn’t pick the best duelists; he chose men who could cook and do laundry in the field. Most importantly, he needed men who wouldn’t balk at oddities.
L: Not only does he pick the best outfits and the best weapons for the job, he picks the right people, too. Adolin takes his time to think deeply about all the decisions he makes, when he can afford to do so. It’s an incredible quality to have as a leader of men.
A: Indeed. It’s almost comical; he does this sort of thing automatically, if you can say that about something that takes real thought. He thinks about who he’s choosing, but he doesn’t think, “this is a thing a good leader will do.” I think it’s a combination of training and personality.
L: Oh look this is also the chapter where I get to wax poetic about SWORDS!
“This?” Adolin said, patting his side sword. “Oh sure, this is better than nothing, but I’d hate to be caught with just it and no buckler.
L: I’ve taken quite a few stage combat courses, and this whole section just tickles me pink. An arming (one-handed) sword is great, but Adolin’s right… a buckler is also essential, and can be used as a weapon itself!
A: This also reminds me of the debates about the RoW cover art. Some argued that it didn’t make sense for Adolin to be carrying a sword, so that had to be someone else on the back cover. Others pointed out that, after the last trip through Shadesmar, there’s no way in Damnation that Adolin was going in there armed only with a knife again. Well, now we know… Adolin most definitely took a sword along into Shadesmar. Or six or seven. And a warhammer.
L: That’s my boy.
Besides, I’ve trained to duel mostly on longswords and greatswords.”
L: This makes perfect sense, since he’s preparing himself to use Shardblades. A Shardblade is bigger than even a greatsword (they’re almost comically large), but learning how to wield a weapon two-handed would be essential, and greatswords would have to be wielded as such. (A longsword could be used either one or two-handed.) Okay, honestly I could go on about this for pages because I LOVE SWORDS, but I’ll spare you all the TED talk. (I… just realized that I did the same exact thing Adolin did. This may be another reason why I love him so much…)
A: I don’t believe you…
L: All right, I lied. One more comment on swords, but only because this directly ties into history:
The ancient Shardblades—the dead ones that most Shardbearers used—were locked, apparently into the last shape they’d held.
L: This really makes me wonder what, exactly, they were all fighting in that final battle in which they laid down their swords. Thunderclasts would make sense to be fighting with such huge weapons, but… something gives me the feeling that there was something else to this.
A: I’ve always wondered who the enemy was in that situation. The last of the singers who still had viable forms, maybe?
L: But if that were the case, why the huge showy weapons?
A: I can only make guesses, and none of them are very satisfactory.
However, when they wanted to show off, they created something majestic and otherworldly—something that was less about practicality and more about awe. That indicated most Shardblades, his own included, had practical forms—but had been abandoned in their more showy styles.
L: So… were they trying to show off? To whom?
A: They were making a point, I suppose, though I’m not sure I could put my finger on what that point is. Sheer drama? The Recreance scene we saw in Dalinar’s vision was clearly meant to get attention, although (as we learn much later) they probably didn’t realize the spren would be stuck like that interminably. Best guess, they wanted to drive home the point that this action was being taken by the Knights Radiant!!! not just any old army with any old swords. And that they were DONE with this war.
Spren and Shadesmar
“Be careful, Adolin,” she said, flitting up into the air. “My kind aren’t like highspren—we don’t look to laws, but to morality, as our guide.”
“That’s good, isn’t it?” Adolin said.
“It is… unless you happen to disagree with their interpretation of morality.”
L: Hooboy. That does sound like a disaster waiting to happen…
A: Maybe that’s why I test out as a Skybreaker instead of a Windrunner. I want defined absolutes, not emotions, to determine what is fair and honorable.
…what we feel can often be more important to us than what we think.
L: Letting your emotions rule you even when presented with logical facts is indeed problematic… but maybe it makes sense for spren, who are literal manifestations of emotion…
A: Some of them are, anyway. Some of them are literal manifestations of concepts or observable phenomena.
Relationships and Romances
…she wasn’t Veil today—not with the red hair. Plus, he could usually tell by the way she looked at him.
L: I love that he knows her well enough at this point to be able to tell.
A: He’s been able to do that (at least to some extent) for quite a while, though—he did it on the wall in Thaylen City, too. But aside from picking nits, I totally agree: He knows her well enough to know which persona she’s wearing at any given moment. It’s cool, but it also breaks my heart a little.
Father probably still wouldn’t approve, but these days Dalinar didn’t approve of Adolin in general.
L: Ahhh. Here we have our first (I think? I forget if we saw any glimpses of this in Part One) indication that Not All Is Well between father and son. Going into this book, I was hoping to see what Adolin’s thoughts would be on the reality of his mother’s death (and Dalinar keeping that knowledge from him before his little trip to the Nightwatcher). Interestingly, however, what we’re seeing here is that Dalinar is disapproving of Adolin. Because of his murder of Sadeas, presumably. Conflict is, of course, the backbone of a story and I’m glad to see it for that purpose. But it does make me sad to see Adolin and Dalinar on the outs with one another. Is it realistic? Hooboy yeah. Relationships with parents are always complex and multi-layered, even for those of us who are lucky enough to have good ones.
A: Adolin has long had a feeling of not living up to Dalinar’s expectations, so I’m not entirely sure why he phrases it as “these days.” I guess it’s more obvious now; before, it was a matter of silly things like being overly concerned with fashion, or not taking something-or-other seriously enough. Now Adolin has done something that is completely outside the limits of Dalinar’s expectations of “I want my son to be better than me,” and neither of them quite know how to deal with it.
“Have you come to torment me, or is there an actual purpose behind this visit?”
“I just wanted to check on you,” Adolin said. “See how retirement is going.”
L: I adore their friendship, honestly. The fact that Adolin takes the time to check up on him, especially after Kaladin’s latest depressive episode when Adolin found him sitting against the wall… He’s a good, caring friend. I hope that someday Kaladin comes to appreciate him more, and repays the favor.
A: It’s really a delight, isn’t it? It was important to him to check before they left, and even if Kaladin acts grumpy about it, I think he does appreciate it. Syl sure does, anyway! And I appreciated her comments on the subject (nice way to tell the reader what’s going on, Brandon): that since moving to the clinic and spending time with his family, Kaladin is sleeping better and is more relaxed, even if he still has nightmares. “He’s almost never alone.” What a gift. (Too bad it won’t last…)
Adolin walked over and put his hand on Kaladin’s shoulder. “Hey,” he said. “It chases us all. Including me, Kal.”
L: How is he just… the sweetest person on Roshar? I love their bromance so much.
A: I kind of expect to see Kaladin eventually register what Adolin just said… that for all his appearance of carefree highprince, he’s not unscarred by all the warfare.
L: One of the less-nice things about depression is being unable to see or care about others. It sort of… dampens your empathy, when you’re really far down in it. You just lack the energy to care; you’re using too much of it to keep yourself going.
A: Too true. It’s good to have someone around who “gets it” but doesn’t actually suffer from depression—or at least not at the same time and the same way. When Adolin noticed the way Kaladin had the surgery knives so handy, and deliberately triggered a reaction, it was… I can’t find the right word. Heartwarming, in a way, because it brought the elephant-chull in the room out where they could talk around it. Kaladin needs this so much.
Take these months to relax. When I return though, let’s find a chance to spar together again, all right? I want you to see what I see in duels. It’s not about hurting others. It’s about being your best.”
“I… don’t know if I can ever think like you do,” Kaladin said. He wrapped his fist around the metal disc. “But thank you. I’ll keep the offer in mind.”
L: This can only be conveyed in a reaction gif.
“Thank you,” Adolin said to Gallant. “For being with me. I know you’d rather be with Father.” The horse blew out, then reached his muzzle into Adolin’s hand.
Ryshadium chose their riders; they were not broken or trained. They accepted you, or they did not—and it was very rare for one to allow two riders.
L: I’m so glad that Adolin is forming a bond with Gallant. He won’t replace Sureblood, of course, but it’s nice to see him bonding with another Ryshadium.
A: This was another delight. Both of them benefit from this relationship, but I’ll admit I was stunned to see Gallant going with Adolin into Shadesmar, going away from Dalinar. That was not expected.
“That’s a new uniform,” Dalinar said to him. “Better than some you’ve been wearing lately.”
“That’s amusing,” Adolin said. “Four years ago when I last wore this, you called it disgraceful.”
L: Oof. Oh, dear. This isn’t starting off well.
A: Just a touch of resentment, here? A tiny little bit, maybe? It’s almost comical—if it weren’t so sad—to see Adolin using the jacket as a representation of an issue that’s so much bigger than this.
“Son,” Dalinar said, “I’m not disappointed in you.”
“Aren’t you? Can you say that truthfully, with an oath?”
Dalinar fell silent.
L: Yeah. Definitely not going well. I find it interesting that even the most empathic person, when faced with a betrayal by someone close to them, can allow their emotions and better judgment to be overruled by hurt. Dalinar is clearly really trying to mend bridges here, and Adolin’s having none of it.
A: And this is so not the time to be having this conversation. They needed to face each other and talk about what was really going on, for each of them, months ago. It’s been festering. But isn’t that the way many of us do it? Avoid it, avoid it… and then bring it out in a really stupid, petty way at the wrong time.
L: Granted, this isn’t the worst time they could be having this conversation. In the middle of a battle would be worse. But it’s certainly not great, when Adolin is heading off to an uncertain fate in Shadesmar.
A: Yeah. Maybe it’s good to at least bring it up before they go different directions for months, but at the same time… everyone else is crammed into the control room waiting for him, so they can’t actually deal with it now. ::Sigh::
Dalinar sighed. “Don’t go down this road, son. Do not let my failings drive you to rebel against what you know is right, merely because it’s what I wish of you.”
“I’m not—” Adolin made fists, trying to squeeze out his frustration. “I’m not simply rebelling, Father. I’m not fourteen anymore.”
L: This is such a difficult position for them both to be in. I can absolutely understand and sympathize with both sides, here. Adolin wants to be his own man and have his father respect his life choices. Dalinar doesn’t want him to make the same mistakes he did.
A: Yep. As a parent, you’re just aching to have your kid learn at least a little from the stupid mistakes you made—and as the “kid” in question, being treated like a child when you’re an adult with responsibilities of your own is really not helpful.
“Murdering a man in a back alley, then lying about it? Well, the world is better off without him. In fact, there are a lot of people this world could do without. Let’s start removing them quietly.…”
Maybe I murdered Sadeas, Adolin thought. But at least I never killed anyone innocent. At least I didn’t burn my own wife to death.
L: Aaaaaaand there it is. That’s why Adolin is lashing out so much, and he’s even self-cognizant enough to realize it.
A: ::Sigh:: As much as I think they needed to talk about this, I’ll admit I have no idea what either of them could possibly say. Adolin even acknowledges that it was an accident, that Dalinar had no idea Evi was there until after it was far too late, but… that doesn’t change the fact that it was Dalinar’s order to burn out the “hidey-hole” that killed her. What is there to say?
One could know these things without feeling them. And this. Wasn’t. Something. You. Forgave.
L: Yikes. I… can’t exactly blame him. I’ve never been in that position, and I can’t imagine how awful it must feel to be so. This isn’t something that you can just hand-wave and be okay with five minutes later. It’s going to take a lot of work and self-analysis. And, hopefully, communication.
A: This is one where I completely understand him feeling this way, but I wish I could reach in and tell him: The only way to deal with this is to forgive. It cannot be changed, and it cannot be forgotten; the only way to ever restore a relationship between these men is to make the deliberate, conscious choice to forgive what seems unforgivable. And it’s going to have to go both ways. Not making excuses for each other, but recognizing that while you can never like a past action, you can forgive it and let go of the bitterness.
L: There is another option. He’s not obliged to keep his father in his life. Just because they’re related doesn’t mean he has to forgive him. I do think that this would be going too far in this specific situation; Dalinar is actively trying to be a better person. I’m just pointing out that there are more options for Adolin, here. As he himself points out:
“Maybe—incredible though it may seem—there are more than two choices in life.
L: He’s not wrong.
A: Nope. I wonder why we’re so prone to seeing false binaries? There are always more than two choices in life. But I don’t think cutting his father out of his life is a real possibility. Not just that I think it would be deeply unhealthy for both of them, but Dalinar is king of Urithiru, and Adolin is Kholin Highprince living in Urithiru. They have to work together. (Plus, the effect on Renarin would be devastating.)
L: I did say that it would be going too far in this situation, in my opinion. But if you, my chickens, find yourself in a similar situation, let this serve as a gentle reminder that there are other options than just “forgive and move on.”
A: Someone wiser than me once said something to the effect that “forgiveness isn’t solely for the benefit of the other person; it frees you from the bitterness of holding on to the anger.” Which is what I think Adolin needs. It’s also something that requires time and reflection, as well as a decision. Never easy.
“You want me to become one of them, don’t you?” Adolin said. “Part of the purpose of this trip, in your eyes, is for me to become a Radiant!”
“Your brother is worthy,” Dalinar said, “and your father—against his best efforts—has proven worthy. I’m sure you will prove yourself too.”
As if I didn’t have enough burdens.
L: Oh, for… Dalinar. Really? Really? I get that he’s trying to do what’s best for his son, and that he believes in him, but… let your kids make their own mistakes and be who they want to be, buddy.
A: Forget making their own mistakes, why are you tying this to personal worth??? Is this suddenly how we measure the worth of a man?
I can make excuses for Dalinar’s perspective, given he has pretty much been one of the elite for the last 30-plus years, and given his family is of course the logical choice for the new elite group, but… argh. Bad word choice at the very least, but really a bad attitude toward the whole bond question. The spren don’t seem to be concerned very much about “worth”—at least not as the humans see it.
A: Not directly related to the quote, but it occurs to me that Kaladin and Adolin have similar situations (duh!) with their fathers, but their reactions are very different. They both have fathers whom they love and whose approval they want very much. They each feel that they aren’t living up to their father’s expectations. Both feel that their father has a valid view, but they aren’t sure it’s right for them. The big difference (in this chapter) is that Adolin is trying to find a way of his own that honors the values he shares with Dalinar, but which is distinctly his own; Kaladin is pretty sure that Lirin is right and he himself is wrong, but can’t figure out how to force himself to feel/think the way he “should.”
And of course, this is going to come up over and over through the book.
L: This may be a thing we begin to address in the “Overall Themes” section going forward, as it is very prevalent.
A: Brandon really pulled out all the stops on dealing with uncomfortable life issues in this book, didn’t he? Well, maybe not all the stops, but most of them.
Bruised, Broken, and Disabled
“‘War is the last option of the state that has failed, but it is better than having no options.’”
L: There’s a thing in some forms of story structure in which, at some point early in the story, another character “states the theme” to the main character. This is the lesson that the character must learn and which will result in their personal growth throughout the course of their arc. Whether this is intentional in this case I don’t know, but it feels like a theme stated moment for Kaladin to me. I really love the subtlety of it.
“You should have been the surgeon, Adolin,” Kaladin said. “Not me. You care about people.”
L: Okay there Mister “I can’t stand to see anyone die and I’m going to take all these slaves and battered and broken people under my wing and protect them oh and I’m also going to pull all these soldiers suffering from PTSD out of the dark hole they’ve been stuffed in to give them therapy” Stormblessed.
A: Heh. To be fair, he hasn’t gotten quite that far yet. But in a way, I think maybe I can see what he’s saying. Kaladin tends to care about his people—and yes, he tends to pick up all the strays and rejects of society—and will defend them with all he’s got. Adolin rarely seems concerned about whether or not someone qualifies as “his” before he simply cares about them. The only ones beyond his interest are those who have made themselves his enemies.
Truth be told, this fits so well with the Edgedancer Ideals that it’s driving me crazy. I don’t think Adolin is going to be a “traditional” Edgedancer, but he’s got such amazingly Edgedancerish vibes, I almost don’t see a way to avoid it! (Not that I want to, exactly, but I want him and Maya to be something new, so… I’m really conflicted here.)
Oaths Spoken, Powers Awakened
“[Your Shardplate]’s not going to make the transfer, Brightlord,” one armorer warned him. “When you go to Shadesmar, it will be left behind on the platform. It’s been tested on several suits already.”
L: Well, that makes sense, as Shardblades can’t manifest in the Cognitive Realm either. Both are “made of” spren.
A: I’m still wondering why Adolin thought his Plate might behave differently. Because of his relationship with Maya, maybe? Dunno.
Though by far the most talented at illusions among her people, Shallan’s own abilities in Soulcasting had proven… erratic.
L: Hmmm. Because her warring personalities are unstable, maybe?
A: Maybe. I have a vague idea that it’s not entirely unusual for some Radiants to be better at one Surge than the other, and that it can go either way within an Order. If that’s the case, it could just be a case of “even if she’s the leader by dint of being the first, it doesn’t necessarily mean she’s all-around good at everything.” Which would be… kind of refreshing, actually. Nice twist.
Other times, she accidentally created twisted things: flames, sometimes pools of blood, once a translucent crystal.
L: The fact that she’s creating things that are “twisted” does imply that there’s still something unstable about her, and hence her powers. Perhaps after RoW, now that she’s integrated her most harmful personality, she might see some improvement in this regard…
A: Yeah, there’s that twisted theme… so maybe her problem really is a matter of her poor twisted-up mind and heart. Honestly, at this point I’m less concerned about her multiple personalities than I am about her finally being honest with herself.
L: I agree. Her multiple personalities aren’t the problem, not really. They’re a symptom of a deeper problem.
A: Hmm. Am I sensing another Theme to this chapter? Or this whole arc? Shallan and Adolin both have issues they’re burying deep, and they aren’t going to resolve their insecurities until they face and deal with them.
Cosmere Connections
“What is it?” Kaladin asked, taking the disc. One side was engraved with a picture of a divine figure in robes, while the other side bore the same figure in battle gear. Both were surrounded by strange foreign glyphs. It had been coated with some colored enamel at one point, but that had mostly worn off.
“Zahel gave it to me when I finished my training with him,” Adolin said. “Says it’s from his homeland—they use these things as money. Weird, eh?”
L: Money from Nalthis, eh? That’s pretty cool!
He’s from somewhere to the west. He doesn’t look like a foreigner though, so I’m guessing it must be Bavland.”
L: West. Sure. Waaaaaaaaaaaay west, Adolin.
A: Second star to the right, and straight on till morning.
Stargyle’s wife has come down with a sickness.
L: Brandon has stated that this strange sickness sweeping over Roshar is just the common cold, brought here by worldhoppers. I’m wondering if this is just another instance of it. (I’m very glad that it’s nothing more serious than that, because I’ve had quite enough of plagues, thank you very much.)
A: We don’t hear anything further about it, but apparently she recovers before too long. At least, Stargyle goes along to the Emuli battlefront with Dalinar and Jasnah later.
TinFoil TheoryCrafting
“Pattern’s run off to say goodbye to Wit for some reason,” she said. “Said it was very important…”
L: In the grand scheme of tinfoil theories this one’s small potatoes, but… how much do you want to bet that he’s having a chat with Wit about Shallan’s personalities, and maybe something that has to do with a certain second Cryptic?
A: And possibly about communicating through a seon? One of the best things about a reread is finding all the foreshadowing that you had no way of spotting the first time through.
Humans
Though Shallan wanted her team to become spies, Jasnah seemed to see their powers of illusion as a distant second to their ability to feed armies.
L: I respect Jasnah for being as smart of a strategist as she is. But she could stand to take a lesson or two in empathy from Adolin.
A: This is very Jasnah. She sees everyone, including herself, as a tool to be used in the fight against Odium. It’s awesome, and also terrifying.
Flora and Fauna of the Physical Realm
Adolin stepped up to the Ryshadium and stared into his watery blue eyes—which, if he looked closely, had a faint swirl of rainbow colors to them.
L: Okay that rainbow swirl has to be significant.
A: Indeed and it does!
Brilliant Buttresses
…had Adolin ever seen Kaladin out of uniform?
L: Yes, you lovable dope, when you first met him when he was a bridgeman.
A: Unless you call the bridgemen’s outfits a uniform… but if so, they weren’t much of one.
“I’m convinced half of them are here to get a peek at me,” Kaladin said, with a sigh. He tied on a white surgeon’s apron. “I fear my notoriety could overshadow the clinic’s purpose.”
Adolin chuckled. “Be careful. Now that I’ve vacated the position, you’re Alethkar’s most eligible bachelor.
L: D’awww! I adore the good-natured teasing between the two of them. And Kaladin having to deal with his adoring fans is always endearing!
A: SO funny to watch Adolin explain all this to Kaladin, starting with noting the long line of women at the clinic. But if anyone would notice all this, and put the pieces together, Adolin is totally the most qualified!
“I… had wondered why so many lighteyed women suddenly needed medication,” he said. “I’d thought that maybe their personal surgeons had been recruited into the war.…” He glanced at Adolin, then blushed.
L: HE BLUSHED. I’M DYING.
A: BAHAHAhahahahahahaha!
Kal, don’t let anyone burn the tower down while I’m away.
L: ::ahem::
A: What was that about foreshadowing? Yikes.
“Don’t be silly,” Adolin said, pulling open the door as he gestured at Kaladin’s work clothing. “I could never dress like that.”
L: Oh, Adolin.
“Storms,” a voice said. “Pardon, Brightlord, but how many swords do you need?”
L: As someone who owns… ::counts:: four so far (if you don’t count the stage combat lightsaber), the answer to this question is ALL OF THEM. ALL THE SWORDS, GODEKE. DON’T YOU JUDGE HIM.
A: Personally, I only own three, and have no idea what to do with any of them. (Okay, my husband and I own three. Community property state, okay?)
L: (If you’re curious, see the link in my byline to my TikTok, I put up a video showing all my stage combat weapons.)
“Well,” Adolin said to Godeke, “you can never have too many swords.”
L: ::nods sagely:: Adolin knows what’s up.
That’s it from our side. Have fun and remember to be respectful of the opinions of others!
Alice is starting her Skyward reread, hoping to refresh her memory on All The Things before the new beta arrives in just under three weeks. Wheeee!
Lyndsey has been craving human interaction, so she’ll be doing weekly videos on TikTok regarding the reread every Thursday morning. If you have any questions for her, leave them in the comments of the video! She’d love to “video chat” with you.
I believe this is really the only mention of Adolin’s mother’s death by Dalinar’s command. It was strange that it wasn’t a bigger deal…
Oh Dalinar. I think it’s been proven by now that spren bonds don’t have anything to do with worthiness. At least, not in the way you see in conventional fantasy. There’s no innate character trait that makes you the Hero and the Chosen One. Spren have shown to bond with no regard to the person’s character. Proximity seems to be the common element, especially with the squire system.
I’m with you, Lyn. The answer to Godeke’s question is always “One more.”
@1 Worthiness
I think you are both right and wrong here. I think reducing it to proximity is a little too much. But worthiness is judged by the individual spren (or maybe by the larger community such as with Lift), but some people get selected and some don’t. And the criteria they use aren’t what Dalinar might consider worthy in all cases.
Obviously it varies from order to order. The Honorspren seem to have latched on to Kaladin’s followers, but they are also following him, acting like him, believing like him so they align with his windrunner ideals which drew Syl to him in the first place.
I loved this chapter so much. I’ve seen complaints that the Shadesmar plot in Part 2 moved slowly, but personally, I found it a joy just to be able to watch Adolin and Shallan being themselves (in Shallan’s case, being herselves), regardless of any big plot moments. I could watch Adolin caring about fashion and horses and his friends all day.
I was very pleased that we got to see Adolin’s conflict around the revelations in Oathbringer here. For all the fandom idea of Dalinar being the ur-Dad, he’s mostly a “good dad” to people who are unrelated to him (e.g. Kaladin) and a pretty poor dad to his actual children.
The degree to which Kaladin’s friends are such good friends to him in the early part of ROW (and in Shadesmar in OB) whereas he doesn’t seem to give any thought to how they’re doing and either just assumes they’re doing fine or actively envies them for being fine (even when Shallan is, evidently and empirically, not fine, and Adolin is, more subtly, also going through a lot) bothered me, so I’m glad you discussed it here in the context of depression. He’s a good leader and he cares about his men but he’s…not a very good frien
You’re assuming Adolin is right. I think he’s just wrong. As your partner here has pointed out, my memory isn’t perfect, but isn’t there a WoB that a Shardblade’s default form is the gigantic blade, and they have to consciously try to be in any other form, or something similar?
I loved reading this chapter if only because I thought to myself, I can’t wait to see what Gepeto has to say about it in the re-read.
Adolin’s line about gut instincts only working because he spends hours studying the folios represents one of my favorite general ideals, which is the importance of discipline, structure and even what seems like monotonous, rote repeition in art. You can’t be truly creative unless you’ve mastered the techniques and then know how to use them.
Regarding another statement in this reread – does Kaladin really think Lirin is right and he himself is wrong? They both seem pretty stubbornly set in their ways to me.
@1, @3
Also, as Lyn and Alice said, there’s no question that Adolin meets the ideals of the Edgedancers. He’s an amazing Edgedancer, as evidenced by his commitment to Maya, a person who belongs to a group that even other spren seem to have written off as hopeless. I think the only reason he hasn’t been bonded to a cultivationspren is that he’s already “taken”. Dalinar doesn’t see that, though, and he’s over-simplified how the bonding process works.
I think Adolin and Maya have a bond that is unique now but will be the template for reviving the dead eyes. Or just the fact that Maya is starting to return will inspire the rest of the spren to actively start working to bring them back.
Another thought is that this might inspire Shallan to try reviving Pattern(0) and end up with 2 spren.
@2:
In other words: the most important sword a fan can have… is always the next one.
Lisamarie@6 – I was a little unclear, since I was basically musing onscreen. In this chapter, Kaladin thinks his father is right, that killing is always wrong, and that he should feel wrong about killing. He doesn’t always think that, but a lot of the issue he’s having is that he can’t tell the difference between what he’s thinking vs. what he’s feeling, and (more importantly) he doesn’t actually understand why Lirin believes as he does. So Kaladin is frequently at odds with himself throughout the books.
(FWIW, I think Lirin’s biggest fault is that he’s never explained his ideals to his son, and just expected him to fall in line without questioning. It goes against all his own scientific precepts, but he doesn’t seem to register that. As a parent, if you can’t communicate to your kids why you believe what you believe, there’s a much lower chance that when they grow up, they’ll continue to believe it.)
goddessimho @8 – At the end of the book, we see Shallan and Adolin talking about what he did to revive Maya and whether Shallan could apply any of that to reviving Testament.
If Brandon needs to write something different to recharge his batteries, I hope he writes a short story where Adolin is part of E! Network’s coverage of the stars walking the red carpet before the Oscars. Adolin’s co-host would be the late Joan Rivers. Syl would be the special correspondent who would change her form to mirror what the stars wore. Adolin and Joan could ask Syl to slightly change the dress or suit to show what it would look like when they offered alterations.
Alice. As Chiri-Chiri talks (at least as of the end of RoW), it would not shock me if Gallant learns to speak in Book 5. I do not expect it, but my draw would not drop like it did when I first read the Chiri-Chiri Interlude.
Lyndsey. As a fan of swords (the martial weapons – I am not using any innuendos), I have no problem if you were to include paragraphs of all the different swords in Roshar, including analysis of which swords should be used in which combat scenarios and what their RL equivalents would be. Also, don’t you wish you could have a real lightsaber (I mean real in the sense that it is supposed to work in the Star Wars Universe). I sure do. If I could have any one fictional weapon, I would want a Lightsaber (and the skill to be a blademaster).
Interesting dichotomy in RoW between fathers and sons. We have Lirin and his attitude towards Kaladin and Dalinar in his attitude toward Adolin. I think the problem with both fathers is they know something caused a changed in their relationship with their sons (for Dalinar, it is Adolin learning the truth of how Evi died and for Lirin, it is having to deal with the fact that Kaladin survived war, but his other son, Tien, did not). The cause of the change changed their sons – if only how each son perceives his father – yet the fathers do not know how to deal with the change. They each tried to impose their morals/philosophy on their respective sons. I found the way that Lirin did it to be much worse than Dalinar. Lirin in some respect, disowned Lirin. At the end of RoW, I think Lirin at least came to accept that Kaladin has different outlook on life than Lirin; but Lirin will try not to hold that against Adolin. Dalinar, on the other hand, expects Adolin to behave a certain way – even if he knows that Adolin is not exactly the same person who he hoped Adolin was (see Dalinar’s thoughts to himself in OB after the wedding). Yet as of the end of RoW, Dalinar has yet to accept that Adolin can choose his own path. Part of the problem Dalinar has vis-à-vis Adolin is that Dalinar is sometimes like a storm. He has one view and does not change. I find it ironic that he is trying to teach the Stormfather to have compassion or be sometimes different. I hope Dalinar realizes that the attitude he wants to Stormfather to take sometimes Dalinar should apply equally to how he treats Adolin.
Alice. IMO, I think your guess is correct. Adolin thought that because Maya, as a dead-eye has communicated with Adolin, then perhaps his Shardplate will also act differently than typical Shardplate
Benjamin @7. I do not think that Adolin is taken in the way that Timbre informed Rlain he was taken by another spren (when Rlain asked if Venli knew of any other Reacher spren willing to bond a Listener) – i.e., the spren having chosen a human/listener the spren finds worthy of a Nahel bond. Rather, I think Adolin is taken in that he does not want to give up his connection with Maya. Had he done so, I do not doubt some spren would have already bonded Adolin. Adolin feels loyal to Maya – perhaps even a connection beyond Adolin bonding the Shardblade. This is why Adolin is so eager to go into Shadesmar. It is a chance to see Maya again. In the next chapter, we see him introduce Maya to everyone. The same way a person introduces his new significant other to his/her friends.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@6, and I wholeheartedly agree…
We should just clear out and give Gepeto room to let loose. He’s been waiting for this chapter since the end of WoR.
@11 AndrewHB
At the end of RoW, Adolin is still in Shadesmar. He and Dalinar don’t see each other again in the book after this chapter.
@13 that’s ominous
Note that a big aspect of Kaladin’s arc here is deciding between two father figures: his actual father and Dalinar. Dalinar is more affectionate, and more respectful. He calls Kal “son,” expresses concern for him, praises him for success, trusts him to do difficult things. You can’t say any of that about Lirin until the very, very end of this book. Touching Kaladin on the forehead at the end is the only time (that I remember) Lirin touches him at all, isn’t it?
As part of Brandon’s parallelism theme: both Dalinar and Lirin took an action that unintentionally caused the death of a close and beloved relative. Dalinar’s order got Evi killed, and Lirin’s theft got Tien killed. Note that unlike Dalinar, Lirin never admits that stealing the diamond chips was wrong.
@13 RogerPavelle
To be fair, Dalinar’s views on Adolin could’ve changed without Adolin being present.
THEORY TIME!!!! :D
Adolin shows some truly Edgedancer-y traits here, for sure, but he also believes that dueling (something he considers a core part of his identity) is “about being your best,” which is 100% Releaser. I don’t remember when I got the idea in my head, but I’ve started paying attention to –everything- Adolin says, and have been surprised by how frequently his words or actions align with the ideals of one of the various Radiant orders. As for what this could mean if I’m on to something… my most sane guess is that he eventually becomes a mediator between the orders. He understands the driving philosophies behind each order, so he can help Radiants of different orders understand each other. An insane guess is that he’ll bond multiple spren and / or Honorblades and become a Surgemaster**, like the Radiant equivalent of someone possessed by Yelig-Nar. An “oh woooooooow, even by my standards this is utterly bat****-ludicrous, tinfoil-ridiculous” theory is that he becomes this Lightborn because it was Cultivation’s ultimate goal all along: to Connect the greatest duelist alive with a Knight from each order, that they might help him master both the surges and the ideals necessary to defeat Odium. It’s fun to speculate as wildly as possible ;D
**[Mistborn Era 1 spoiler] Without a vessel, the Investiture of Preservation took the form of mist. An allomancer who can burn all metals is called a Mistborn. Therefore, I propose that anyone who can bind all 10 Rosharan surges be called a Lightborn.
What if Adolin has not been bonded by a spren because he is being saved to be the the third Bondsmith?
Carl @15 – “Note that unlike Dalinar, Lirin never admits that stealing the diamond chips was wrong.”
Well, not on-screen, anyway. He was always a proponent of non-violence, but he’s different now than he was in Kaladin’s flashbacks. Then, he resisted the new authority in his own subtle way. Now, he refuses to resist the takeover at all, because his former attempt to resist resulted in his sons’ deaths. (Only one, but at the time he thought it was both.)
We don’t know that it actually was theft for Lirin to keep the diamond broams; his story may have been true, even if he ended up forging the necessary documentation due to Wistiow’s sudden ill-health. Either way, he has most certainly decided that keeping them was what resulted in Roshone’s decision. So even though he hasn’t said anything about the spheres directly on-screen, he now believes that resisting Roshone was the wrong choice, and he takes personal responsibility for Tien’s death.
CruelSadist @16 – Wowsa!! I like that theory! I have no idea whether it’s anywhere close to possible, but I like it anyway.
JanDSedai @17 – That would work, too.
Also, rats. I was looking forward to Gepeto’s comments here, too!
@16 – Officially love your crazy theory. He’s definitely spending a lot of time with Radiants across the orders. Plus his dad is in need of a champion and about to get schooled in the extents of a Bondsmith’s powers. I was pretty caught up in the Maya/Edgedancer talk, and he’s had way more than a few instances of reacting to things unheard by others, listening to all without prejudice… he’s for sure aligned with those ideals so far, but… maybe that’s just a red herring, and the unbroken cinnamon roll really is capable of becoming something beyond Radiant? Or maybe he gets to Remake (un-Unmake?) and bond Mishram?
According to Blended, Adolin and Maya are not forming a Nahel Bond, but “something new.”
So … technically that means Adolin is already doing what a Bondsmith does, right? Or is he defying the Bondsmith Ishar and forming a pre-Radiant type bond with Mayalaran?
For those who were wondering where I have been… I am not dead. Nothing bad happened, I have just been procrastinating in delivering my thoughts. I had wanted to, I did, but then I never really made time for it. First, there was Cobra Kai and I just had to browse through all I could find on Karate Kid afterwards while bombarding my work colleagues with well-chosen memes. By the time I was done, Lupin was on, and then stupid Netflix said I should watch Winx and, well, huh, I have been recently shamefully “occupied” indulging in a teens’ show crafted after some old kid’s cartoon I had never heard of nor seen. And yeah, I did like it, I even found an Adolin wannabe in there, so huh… that’s where I have been: lost in the wonderful world of Netflix. Of course, I also read.
All this meant I did not make time to voice out proper thoughts. Even for this chapter. I am really flattered to see some of you wonder where my thoughts were or wondering what they might have been. I did love this chapter. When I read it, I went skipping through the house gleefully. I have been waiting for a very long time for Adolin to have a talk with Dalinar and I did love how the talk cemented some of my clamourings.
So where to start? The things I liked or the things I liked less?
I am not big on Adolin’s fashion obsession. While I thought it was fun, at first, I definitely thought it was a bit much in this chapter. I like Adolin when he tries to make a statement with his clothes, which he does, here, but I still find it a bit much at times.
I liked the rest of the chapter though I am also not big on how the Kaladin/Adolin relationship is being portrayed. I find it terribly one-sided as if a part of me still cannot understand why Adolin even spends time with Kaladin, what he gets out of it. I don’t get why they are “friends”, so their relationship, while being many’s favourites, tends to bore me. It has its moments, I did like what we got here, but it always leaves me wanting for more, for moments that wouldn’t be Kaladin-centric.
I did love Adolin bringing seven swords though I was later very disappointed he only got to use one. I wanted to see them all! I loved reading his love of swords and also his later tale on, well, other swords. The poor kid. I did enjoy reading him presenting his team though I will later wonder why we went through the presentation given how little the crew got to do. I liked that he got his own fellowship, I didn’t like how all members turned out being useless.
Now, what I did love above all was going into the troubled Dalinar/Adolin relationship I personally find more complex than the Lirin/Kaladin one. Lirin and Kaladin, I read it mostly as a misunderstanding of two stubborn selfish men who refused to admit there was more than themselves out there. They are both right and they are both wrong but they obviously love each other. Their feud was bound to end, eventually. Kaladin grew up loved, protected, and inside a family willing to let go his own way even if he was strongly encouraged towards one specific path, a good path.
Dalinar and Adolin are different. In this chapter, I felt a much different vibe. Yes, both Dalinar and Adolin are stubborn, but I think part of Adolin’s rebellious behavior, part of his refusal to listen, part of the problem is the belief, deeply rooted, hidden down below, that Dalinar does not love him for who he is. I do believe the belief his father cannot love him, will not love him if he fails, stumbles, or even just struggles with the ideals placed on him stands at the core of the father/son relationship. When Adolin voices out his belief Dalinar is disappointed in him, a belief Dalinar can’t refute, he is also arguing his father does not love him. Or does not love him enough to let him be himself and, oddly enough, Dalinar probably does not know if he can love Adolin should he keep on refusing to take the next step.
It is not just that… there is the Rift, the losing of a hero, the pain of having been lied to, the hurt Adolin feels but is unable to express because he cannot allow himself to be vulnerable, to not be the strong one. The words he does not say because he does not want to hear what his pain may sound like. All of that makes Adolin refuse to hear Dalinar out and later one, this combo is also what makes him refuse to back down in his failed mission even if the cost is his life. That’s how far he was willing to go: to give everything he can possibly give, so long as, for once, he gets this man to be proud enough of him or to, finally, perhaps, love him. I think the fact Adolin is willing to sacrifice himself at every turn of the road testifies of an unconscious innate need to prove himself, to be told he has finally done enough and since nothing ever is, all that might be left for him to give away is the last possible thing to give: his life.
Dalinar on his side, well, he did try, but he said all of the wrong things at the wrong time. He couldn’t convince Adolin he was not disappointed in him because that would have been a lie. He couldn’t find the words to convince his son he is rebelling, he is acting like a 14 years old teenager and nothing good would come out of it. He couldn’t breach the gap and while he wanted to be reassuring, to state his confidence in Adolin doing better, he ends up making things worst. He ends up telling his son if he proves worthy, he will become a Radiant. He ends up confirming the one thing Adolin always feared: he isn’t good enough, not worthy enough and the lack of a Radiant bound merely serves to cement it. Later in the story, when Adolin is asked, he states he is no Radiant. Already, he has internalized he was not worthy of becoming one. Dalinar tries here and fails for he doesn’t know nor understand his son enough to truly know how to communicate with him. How could he? Adolin always obeyed him.
I read the Lirin and Kaladin relationship as one of a father being reacquainted with his son, after years of separation, but instead of meeting the boy he once knew, he meets the man he has become. Unfortunately, that man happens to disagree on some core tenets and Lirin, falls back in a mode where he feels he needs to educate his son without acknowledging he is talking to a grown man. Kaladin reacts to this and both butt heads one against the other, both denying the other what the other wants: mutual respect.
Dalinar and Adolin is different as I read their relationship is of a father and a child, not two men. It comes across often enough in Adolin’s perspective or in how the scenes are written, whenever he is around Dalinar, Adolin falls back into child mode. In this chapter, Adolin verbalise feeling like a child next to his father, being unable to voice his thoughts, to explain himself, to talk to his father as an equal, as a man. He can’t because whenever he is with Dalinar, he is forever 14, waiting for an approval that never comes, waiting for a love that never truly manifests itself.
Thus he leaves to Shadesmar feeling part man, part boy: a man in every aspect of his life, but a boy next to his father figure desperatly waiting for a pat on the head and to hear that, yes, he has finally done enough.
@Gepeto:
This is exactly how I felt, about the entire Shadesmar team that wasn’t Shallan, Adolin, Maya and Gallant: they had nothing to do. They aren’t part of this novel, really, they’re just sort of exhibits, random irrelevant things the actual characters encounter.
I continue to say that there should have been one more draft, cutting 25% of this book. It wouldn’t even be that hard, just time-consuming.
Regarding friendship – as somebody who is often in Kaladin’s role – I think friendships aren’t always that transactional and equal sided. There are always times when it’s more one sided on one person’s end vs the other’s. And some friends I always kind of know they’ll never be in a place to really give as much, but I stil llike/care about them. It’s not always about keeping count/score.
Plus I think that has been a running theme with Adolin that he is just that type of person – and I don’t think that’s always bad – that he is willing/able to give a little more. Obviously there needs to be a place for him to refresh himself eventually though, and that’s where I hope Shallan is able to eventually mature (as I share your concerns that sometimes Shallan is too self absorbed and needs to grow in that way).
Thank you Gepeto. I loved hearing your thoughts
Thanks, Gepeto! This is going to come up again in the next chapter, where I will wax somewhat philosophical on the relationship between Adolin & Dalinar. (I’m saving my comments on the Lirin/Kaladin issues until we get to a relevant chapter.) I can’t decide whether I wish I’d read your comments before writing what I wrote, or if it’s better that I didn’t. :D In any case, we’ll continue to talk about this over the course of the book, because it’s definitely a recurring theme.
@22 Carl. I enjoyed the team’s presentation, but I wished they had a role to play, so I wouldn’t cut this out, I would simply make the Shadesmar arc longer, make the team participate more. Or perhaps have Adolin leaves with a smaller team thus allowing for bigger roles for those who do come. I would probably leave out Shallan’s spy story arc though: nothing really came out of it. Shallan didn’t have much of an arc in this book.
There are however other places of the story I would personally cut down, but not the Shadesmar arc.
@23 Lisa. While I understand friendships aren’t always equalitarian, in the context of this specific story, I have not enjoyed how Kaladin-centric this relationship has been portrayed. I understand Adolin is a giver and will always strive to give all he can possibly give to others, I keep waiting for the coin to drop.
Part 2 pictures a nice escalation of Adolin’s dedication and stubbornness with regard to his mission. Yes, he wants to succeed for the benefit of mankind, but it goes deeper than merely being dutiful. Adolin refuses to fail and he will refuse to accept failure until he has given all he can possibly give and that includes his own life. There was no way he was going back from Lasting Integrity without a victory: it was either he succeeds or he dies/gets imprisoned for life. Going back with a failure was simply not an option and while most readers will praise Adolin for doing it because it ends up working (and what a great guy it makes of him), I found it a rather dangerous streak.
Hence, in the optic of the Kaladin/Adolin relationship, I have come to start viewing it as toxic for Adolin because it isn’t enough he believes his life is expendable, it isn’t enough he thinks everyone else is more important than him, he spends all his time with people who merely take and do not give. Both Kaladin and Shallan are enabling Adolin’s dangerous penchant for giving too much, for not prioritizing himself, for not knowing when enough is enough (how could he, he grew up with a father who always asked for more), for believing everyone’s problems are more important than his own.
I thus find it very sad Adolin’s main relationships are intended to be depicted as “great” and “healthy” when they provide nothing for him but an excuse to keep on ignoring the seething knot down below. The Kaladin/Adolin relationship, as it is currently being portrayed, makes me dislike Kaladin, a lot, so I wish Sanderson would include something for Adolin in there.
@24 Hi Ben!
@25 Alice. I got a bit philosophical here on my views of the two relationships: Dalinar/Adolin, Lirin/Kaladin. I understand you may want to phrase out your own thoughts before getting into mine, hopefully, you will enjoy them.
Some more thoughts here…
What caught my eye, in this chapter, was how Adolin referred to himself as a child, next to Dalinar. I also caught on Adolin arguing he can’t be rebelling because he no longer is 14 years old only for Dalinar to point out, at 14, he was not rebelling, he was looking up to him for reasons Dalinar cannot understand. This passage cement my belief Adolin never had his teenage rebellion years, he skipped part of his growth because the circumstances were such, he never allowed himself to be a child. As a result, a part of him, now, remains a child.
This made me think there was a subtle duality within Adolin’s character: the man and the child as if a part of Adolin stopped growing up after Evi died, as if part of him is stuck back in time. I felt Adolin is constantly waiting for approval, for Dalinar to acknowledge him and because it never happens, the part of him that yearns for this never managed to mature fully. Hence, I have come to see Adolin, the man, as the one who takes leadership, who speaks eloquently, and Adolin, the child, as the one who fool-hardy rushes into battle thinking every causes he meets requires him to sacrifice himself, thinking his life is not important. Or the Adolin that looks down from Dalinar’s eyes and sees his protests die on his lips, unable to voice them out, unable to talk to his father as an equal, only able to take the role of the petulant child.
Lately, this is how I have read Adolin: half a man, half a child who’s naturally a giver, but is so screwed up, he internalized he should be giving all he can give for any causes he meets because, someday, once he succeeds at giving enough, Dalinar will finally be proud. And love him. In other words, Adolin is f******* broken but is also so sweet, nice, and he gives so much, no one truly realizes it nor bothers with it. Hence why I don’t like his friendship with Kaladin: Kaladin does not see it. He is just another individual sucking away all Adolin can give and Adolin, right now, is being asked to give away too much by too many people, not just Kaladin, but as his friend, I expected more from him. Even Maya, in the end, takes.
So my keywords, whenever you are ready, for the Dalinar/Adolin relationships are expectations, love, enough, child.
@26 I like your thoughts on Adolin’s mother’s deaths impacted him. It mirrors how another cosmere reader(? Is that the right word? He has a podcast called Realmatic Investigator, but most of his Stommlight Thoughts have been spread through his twitter) feels how her death as impacted Renarin. Anyways he feels that ever since Evi died Renarin has felt he was unworthy of love. It would be interesting if the two brothers had similar reactions to thier mom’s death. Just manifested in different ways.
And now I am making myself cry
@Gepeto I disagree with you that nothing came out og shallan’s spy arc, but I think we can leave it at that.
I feel like you did pretty much nail the whole dalinar adolin thing, and adolin being a manchild (not derogative in this instance)
@27 Ben. The narrative hasn’t left us with much with regards to how Renarin may have reacted to his mother’s death. It is pretty much a blank slate right now. Her death was certainly a sad event, but we don’t enough a lot of clues to trace it back to any of his current behaviors. I’d tentatively argue losing Evi is what helped repaired his relationship with his father so while Renarin lost a mother, he gained a father. He never had both. Does he feel unworthy of love because Evi died? I’d ask didn’t he feel this way before she died? Because of Dalinar. In the end, Renarin does end up having a good relationship with his father.
On his side, Adolin lost Evi and he also lost Dalinar. He lost Evi because, well, she died. He lost Dalinar because his father became distant, harsh and when he emerged, he was harder than ever. Hence, all of those precious years in Jah Keved, this glorious honeymoon where Adolin probably felt like he had a father ended up with Evi’s death. Afterward, he was forced to grow up very fast, but a part of him never could.
I thus think Adolin lost both at the same time and this seems to correlate with how both brothers are reacting to present-day events. Renarin refuses to lose his father and focuses on the mitigating elements within Dalinar’s tale while Adolin can’t forgive his father and can’t even so much as brush over his seething knot without seeing his emotions render him speechless for fear they would escape. I feel like Renarin gained Dalinar and isn’t willing to let him go while Adolin has been progressively losing Dalinar more and more, so once the truth is out, all he is left with are negative emotions.
This being said, I would love for the brothers to talk about those things. I do think Renarin probably idolized his brother’s relationship with Dalinar and isn’t truly seeing how it really is. Sadly, I felt like they grew apart and it doesn’t seem like they have much of a relationship, these days.
@28 yep. Nothing was probably a big word, but I’d argue it didn’t carry its own weight.
I wouldn’t call Adolin a manchild as the term usually refers to a grown man acting like a child… Adolin generally doesn’t act like a child, only when he is with Dalinar or unsettled. He does refer to feeling like a boy back in OB. I find it adds a complexity to his character and I hope to read more of it.
@Gepeto:
The book is too long. Making it longer is exactly what I don’t want. (Note: not saying others don’t like the extreme length, talking about my personal reaction.) I’d eliminate or reduce the spy arc, and also cut out the meaningless Zahel scene that contributes nothing, and cut Kaladin’s arc by maybe 1/3. It gets very, very repetitive. Maybe have his second running fight with his powers crippled happen just as written here, but seen through Venli’s eyes as she does part of her much-more-significant arc, as background, and without the obsessive inner-directed highly-repetitive “I am in a depressive spiral” monologue that is, in itself, longer than some novels. Not that I am arrogantly telling any gifted writers how to write, or anything.
Thinking about it, the “Kaladin has depression” plot could have been strengthened by having a Lirin viewpoint a bit earlier in which he observes it, instead of everything being so internal.
Adolin is getting something from Kaladin and Shallan: emotional support. As you say, he’s very insecure about Dalinar not believing in him. From Kaladin, he gets a very capable person, a soldier that is actually fairly close to Dalinar’s ideal in some ways, who absolutely and unhesitatingly believes in and is grateful to him. Shallan is just plain supportive, a person who sincerely and unreservedly loves and desires and appreciates him. Neither of those is nothing. Adolin’s needs are not the same as either Kaladin’s or Shallan’s. He needs to be seen as strong and helping, and his relationships do give him that. Note that Renarin no longer needs the level of support he did when they were both children, so in a way Kaladin is filling that role as well.
@30 Carl. I am not a big fan of how this book was structured. I am not a big fan of how the Shadesmar arc stops at a cliffhanger, disappears for half the book, then re-starts once the cliffhanger is gone. I would have personally kept the Shadesmar arc active, give it a bigger role as it was the one arc (and Dalinar’s arc) that helped the plot move forward the most. And write real aftermath for the cliffhanger.
The Kaladin stuff we read? It didn’t drive much of the narrative which is why it left me feeling the same as the Shallan arc in Oathbringer: “Why did we read it again?”. Hence, I would personally cut down Kaladin’s page time by a fair margin because it doesn’t add enough win to the windmill. It isn’t important enough for the focus it got. Then again, I am not a fan of how Sanderson decided to make mental illnesses the main focus on Kaladin/Shallan story arcs. I felt as if there was nothing to write about those characters apart from how ill they were and it got old very quickly. I realized, weeks after finishing RoW, what I enjoyed so much was the belief we were done with the mental illnesses thematic and done with Kaladin.
Still, in the optic of “what would I have changed”, I would have made the Shadesmar arc much longer, I would have given a role to the whole crew, I would have added more conflicts, more battles, more opposition. I wouldn’t, however, made the book longer, I would have cut down on the Urhithiru arc significantly and that includes both Kaladin and Navani. I would have given Venli a bigger role, but I would have completely changed the flashbacks.
All in all, RoW felt like a book Sanderson wanted to write because this was the plan, but it didn’t really work out. He wanted the foundation scene in so he needed Kaladin to be very miserable but the end result isn’t quite right. There is just too much Kaladin’s misery and half of it felt forced, all was repetitive.
I am still waiting for the scene where Adolin will get support from Kaladin. When did this happen? All of their scenes are geared towards Adolin supporting Kaladin even when he isn’t feeling right and Kaladin taking all the support he is being offered. It wouldn’t bother me half so much if Adolin had other relationships where he receives, where he isn’t just the giver or the fixer. Shallan gives some support, but when it mattered, when the stakes were high, she left him alone because her “problems” were more important. Hence, Adolin always just gives… even with Maya, it is about him giving, giving, and giving some more: giving until he has nothing left to give and all other characters are just happy to suck it all out.
I just want Adolin to have one relationship where he isn’t the giver or where the other person understands just because Adolin naturally is a giver, he also needs support. In other words, being selfless and ready to self-sacrifice shouldn’t mean one needs no support nor care. I hope this wasn’t the message Sanderson was attempting to push through: that Adolin needs no one because he always tries to fix others. He so obviously does it to avoid having to deal with the seething knot: he puts his attention on others so he has none left for himself and no one puts attention on *him*.
RE: Adolin’s Team
I am wondering if this might be a variation on Chekov’s Gun. Since they are all in Shadesmar at the end of the book, this may be setting up action in Book Five, which wouldn’t be possible if they hadn’t been part of the group in Book Four.
The “Kaladin has depression, over and over” novel-length plot reminded me of not liking Sazed’s … wait.
SPOILERS for Mistborn: the Final Empire below.
… not liking Sazed’s “I am having a long, unchanging, repetitive crisis of faith” plotline. I didn’t find either interesting.
I’ve never commented before but had to jump in to LOL at Gepeto:
On a more relevant topic, I believe what Adolin “gets” from Kal and Shallan is an escape from traditional Alethi court life. For all his affability and being “well-acquainted with amiable discourse” he doesn’t seem to have friends who act genuinely around him. Kal’s insubordination and RESCUING HIM IN A 4 ON 1 DUEL and Shallan’s “What if you need to poop” are pretty appealing contrasts to the so-called friends and girlfriends he had previously.
This outside view of Kaladin drives home just how bad his depression is. It seems like Syl has had him on suicide watch. I find it figuratively depressing just how depressed he is, and that he has felt like this for years now.
Radiance and personal worth. Yeah. Ick. Oddly Dalinar forgets that Navani doesn’t have a spren either. I mean, I know she can already make ships fly without being Radiant, but it is still odd that when weighing the worth of the Kholins by whether or not they have Radiant spren that he forgets his own wife.
Can’t Edgedancers cure viral infections like the common cold? Seems like if they could Stargyle’s wife would have been cured by them, because he was slated to go on a vital mission. Is this why Raboniel once tried to kill all humans with a plague, because even Radiants can’t stop viruses?
It occurred to me that one reason I like this chapter so much is because Adolin interacts with so many of the main characters (Shallan, Kaladin, Syl, Dalinar), and a bunch of side characters too. Sadly everyone is splitting away to their own missions, and there will be a lot less character interaction from here on out. I really enjoy character interaction.
About Adolin and his Shardplate, I don’t know that he thinks his Shardplate will transfer. It could be he is hoping to interact with the Plate spren on the cognitive side like he does with Maya.
Does a Radiant’s Plate transfer? I would have thought not, and it is an answer Jasnah should have been able to give everyone by now, so Adolin should know the answer to that. Although now I am confused by Kaladin’s Plate, because windspren exist mostly in the physical realm, but his Plate manifests in the physical realm no problem.
Re: Adolin and friendship. I think LisaMarie, Carl, and LucyLu have good points about the nature of friendship and what someone like Adolin is getting out of his friendship with Kaladin. Kaladin may not currently be able to reciprocate the support, but he does genuinely like Adolin (Kaladin confessed as much to Shallan in WoR), and for someone like Adolin who had trouble for so long developing any sort of meaningful relationship with anyone, I think it is great for Adolin that he has decided to treasure this friendship. I hope Kaladin reaches a place where he can do the same.
Also, Adolin seems to be making another friend: Syl. I’m imagining Adolin and Syl happily pouring over fashion folios together. She’s actually truly interested in something he loves to do. And they have conversations together without Kaladin, like in this chapter where Syl gives him helpful advice about his mission.
Edit: Just wanted to say that Shallan is very much supportive of Adolin, and has been so since WoR.
@nightheron:
Y’know … Kaladin did save Adolin’s and Renarin’s lives at great risk to his own back in the disadvantaged duel. And we see that Adolin admires Kaladin tremendously, over and over. Friendship doesn’t require both parties to treat each other exactly the same and provide the same types of support and help to each other in perfect symmetry.
As I have mentioned in these comments, in this novel it’s Adolin and Kaladin who have much the same journey, freeing mentally/emotionally damaged people from perpetual imprisonment in dark caves. (This whole book is about imprisonment, with Navani also imprisoned physically and Venli metaphorically, while Jasnah is even more metaphorically trapped in the role of Queen, something she chose but surely finds much more confining than wandering the world at her whim, reading and studying.)
@36 Carl:
I wasn’t knocking Kaladin, just observing what a bad state he is in. He is one of those mentally/emotionally damaged people imprisoned in a dark cave. I’ve been down for months, and couldn’t organize my thoughts or type a coherent sentence. When the fog lifts, it is brilliant. Observations connect, solutions clarify. I want Kaladin to reach a place where that happens for him, because it means he is getting healthier.
I also agree that Adolin is getting things he needs from the friendship, and that friendships are complex, and not like mirrored vending machine transactions. I am just happy for Adolin that he is now able to form real friendships, because he couldn’t for so long.
I’ll keep an eye on your imprisonment theme as I reread.
I need to pick up my pace a bit if I ever want to catch up!
Adolin has Navani who seems to treat him like her own son. And Shallan is very supportive of him. Veil, not so much until later on.
@35 Nightheron
I think the biggest thing Adolin gets from his friendship with Kaladin is someone who ltreats him as Adolin, not Adolin Kholin. One of Adolin’s issues has slways seemed to be that he is “The Blackthorn’s Son” rather than his own person. Having someone who genuinely likes him for himself and treats him like he treats everyone else around him has got to be special.